Driving Home the Need for Residential Solar
This week on the podcast we talk about Jackie’s recent op-ed “Blackouts Could Drive a Return to Home Solar” with our guests Gursh Bal and Kai Fahrion, who are the Co-CEO’s of Zeno, a residential home solar solutions provider.
Jackie’s op-ed argues that, while reducing power bills has been the historical reason for installing rooftop solar, the biggest push in the future will come from extreme weather that can cause power outages, electric cars and new financing options.
Here are some of the questions Peter and Jackie asked Gursh and Kai: What is the typical size, cost and payback on a home solar installation? How can the Ford F-150 Lightning electric truck’s bidirectional feature increase home security? Could a Canadian home go off-grid with these solutions? What is the outlook for community solar? What are common concerns when people consider home solar?
Other content referenced in this week’s podcast:
- The documentary on Peter’s home solar installation
- Check out Zeno’s website: livezeno.com
Jackie’s recent op-ed in the Globe and Mail, “Blackouts Could Drive a Return to Home Solar”, sparked this episode. It was timely as the article appeared the same weekend a storm caused extended power outages in parts of Ontario, with some lasting up to two weeks.
One company that’s “plugged in” to the rising interest in home solar is Zeno Renewables, located in Western Canada and run by co-founders Gursh Bal and Kai Fahrian. These days home solar isn’t just generating enough power for the lighting on a single floor, it can help take a home completely off the grid.
“Typically, you’re looking at about 20 panels that’ll offset the average home usage depending on what way your roof is facing, what the angle is, and everything like that we take into account,” says Fahrian. Typical costs are ~$20,000 for those 20 panels but there are federal subsidies in Canada that can shave that cost by $5,000.
“Generally, there (are) three reasons that we find for the majority of our demographic when they’re making their decision to go solar,” says Bal. “The first one, control their energy costs. That’s always the non-negotiable piece. The second one is environmental footprint, and the last one is tech. We get a lot of clients that just want the best gadgets on their house.”
The average installation has a 40-year lifespan and a good estimate of how long it takes for that initial capital investment to be paid back in savings is about 7-10 years depending on consumption and rates. But that’s the easy economics. Factor in things like home value improvement, which Bal and Fahrian explain in detail, and the economic advantages of solar looks even better.
The common negatives about home solar installations are battery storage and the ability of the panels to withstand extreme weather (such as hail). Modern panels installed professionally are standing up remarkably well to weather and battery storage is not only improving but there are some thoughtful ideas about using batteries within large electric vehicles (there are now electric pickup trucks like the Ford F-150 Lightning) as backup capacity.
And home solar installations are now spawning ideas of community microgrids – communities in which shared solar installations help power several homes.
Please review the ARC Energy Institute disclaimer.
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Episode 160 Transcript
Speaker 1:
The information and opinions presented in this ARC ENERGY IDEAS podcast are provided for informational purposes only and are subject to the disclaimer link in the show notes.
Speaker 2:
This is the ARC ENERGY IDEAS podcast with Peter Tertzakian and Jackie Forrest exploring trends that influence the energy business.
Jackie Forrest:
Welcome to the ARC ENERGY IDEAS podcast. I’m Jackie Forrest.
Peter Tertzakian:
And I’m Peter Tertzakian and welcome back. So we’re heading into summer, I’m looking up my app here, I’m generating seven and a half kilowatts of energy on my solar panels. How are you doing?
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. I’m just slightly under that, Peter.
Peter Tertzakian:
Okay.
Jackie Forrest:
So you’re winning today but I’ve been pretty impressed as we’re getting into June, we’re in June now solidly, we’re getting really huge production off our solar panels. Obviously, a lot different than the winter.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a lot different than the winter but it’s pretty impressive and satisfying. In fact, actually, you talked about the benefits of home solar in a recent Globe And Mail article.
Jackie Forrest:
Yeah. So my article and we’ll put a link to it in the show notes is Blackouts Could Drive A Return To Home Solar and it came out the same weekend as that storm that caused the long power outages in parts of Ontario. Some people were out two weeks, very small number of people but it was huge power outages that lasted a long time. Now, I didn’t write it just that weekend. I’d actually got it before so the timing was interesting, but it definitely got a lot of attention because of that. It’s been a bit counterintuitive because a lot of people think, “Well, why would you drive an electric car if there’s going to be blackouts? You won’t be able to get anywhere,” but I’m arguing that the combination of electric car and a few other factors are really going to cause home solar to take off.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. Those sorts of things. Well, it’s not being off grid. It’s actually no grid so the benefits of home solar really kick in, in that and we want to talk about that. We want to talk about that today and we are delighted to have a couple of special guests. We have Gursh Bal and Kai Fahrian from Zeno previously Virtuoso Energy. We’ve invited them because they actually were the contractors who installed our solar panels and what better time to talk about home solar than in the summer so welcome.
Kai Fahrian:
Thanks for having us, Jackie. Thanks for having us, Peter.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. Thank you for having us.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. Well, congrats on your new name. Is it Zeno or Xeno?
Gursh Bal:
Honestly, it’s either or.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay.
Gursh Bal:
We wanted to just simplify things and make it so as much more accessible than our previous name which was Virtuoso. Even though Virtuoso in itself is a beautiful name, it was pretty hard for a lot of people to spell.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. Does it have a meaning?
Gursh Bal:
Yeah, absolutely. Zeno to us actually correlates back to Zeno of Elea and it was the individual who’s considered the founder of Stoicism. Why that was important to us is because individuals that choose to go solar in Canada are making more or less of a stoic decision. Now, for those who aren’t familiar with Stoicism, from our perspective, it’s individuals who choose to take the gifts that they’ve been given and use them for the betterment of society and not focus on the things that they don’t have. Fundamentally, that’s what living sustainably really is. You don’t have to go solar but if you choose to go solar, it is a stoic decision and you’re making the community that you’re living in a better place to be.
Peter Tertzakian:
Well, the stoic movement goes all the way back to what is it? Ancient Greece or-
Gursh Bal:
Yeah.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. But well, we’re talking geography. What geographies does Zeno operate in here in Canada?
Kai Fahrian:
Yeah, that’s a really good question. We currently operate in Western Canada with a head office in Calgary and then an office in Edmonton as well so we’re able to serve as all at Western Canada from there.
Jackie Forrest:
Give us a sense of your market share. When you think about all the residential in the areas you serve, about what percentage of residential solar are you installing?
Gursh Bal:
It’s an interesting question because when it comes down to market share, it’s a combination of what are you seeing go up in relation to who’s got the best information. So how we analyze that is based on what our distributors are telling us and the suppliers and manufacturers are telling us for the products that we’re getting. A lot of the time, we’re the number one purchaser of solar panels with a number of different organizations. So residentially speaking, we might be the largest solar in Alberta and potentially in Canada by volume.
Peter Tertzakian:
Hmm. So for a typical solar installation, let’s get right down to the details as we talk about some of the themes, how many panels go on a roof, a typical house?
Kai Fahrian:
Typically, you’re looking at about 20 panels that’ll offset the average home usage depending on, again, what way your roof is facing, what the angle is, and everything like that we take into account. But yeah, most of the time you’re looking at 20 panels can easily offset a home. And then, depending on if you have an electric vehicle, you can then add panels as well to take care of that and we do that when we’re looking at the consulting of the system, we look at what does the future look like for the individual of the home and how can we future proof that for them.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. And then, for a typical installation I know there’s lots of escalation in every business right now, but in general, what would people be paying for the installation at that typical size?
Kai Fahrian:
Yeah, that’s a really good question as well. So the average system size right now is about $15,000 and that’s after a $5,000 federal grant which is through the Greener Home grant from the federal government.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. Good. Well, has that changed a lot because of all the… We hear about all the inflation in terms of all the inputs to solar panels and how hard they are to get.
Kai Fahrian:
Supply chain has been an interesting one for us. We’ve been dealing with it and hedging it as much as possible. So looking ahead, usually about, we’re looking 12 to 18 months ahead when it comes to the markets. Cost-wise, it hasn’t changed too much. We’ve been able to keep that cost controlled just because we’re able to, like Gur said, work with our distributors, work with our suppliers on direct relationships so it hasn’t been a big impact for us.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. And we love data so the exact number for our average cost to solar installed this year is $19,538 as of this morning.
Jackie Forrest:
All right.
Peter Tertzakian:
538, not seven, right?
Gursh Bal:
That’s right, 38.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. Okay. So $20,000 ballpark, that’s still a fair amount of change for the average homeowner even if it’s $15,000 with the federal subsidy. So you’re talking to the end home consumers, what is their motivation to install solar or what’s the number one and two reasons?
Gursh Bal:
Generally, there’s three reasons that we find for the majority of our demographic when they’re making their decision to go solar. The first one, control their energy costs. That’s always the non-negotiable piece. The second one is environmental footprint and the last one is tech. We get a lot of clients that just want the best gadgets on their house, things of that nature. As you guys did at the start of the conversation as well too, once you go solar, everybody starts to compare their production. There’s a huge portion of our clients that want it just for the sake of having that ability.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. The ability to have control over your energy. It’s a little bit metaphorical to the old days where you look out the window and see how much wood you have stockpiled and so you get comfort in terms of the winter that’s coming. You look at your app and see how much you’re generating and you know that if there’s issues, you have some backups there but the tech certainly is a motivator. But I think, as Jackie’s pointed out, there’s a security issue as well, right?
Jackie Forrest:
Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk about that but I know a lot of our listeners are interested in this for that typical system that you described. If you were just to base it on the value of reducing your power bill, about how many years would it take to get a payback that’s when your savings equal that initial capital investment?
Kai Fahrian:
Right now, you’re looking at about 7 to 10 years. It has a 40 year lifespan and then a 25-year guaranteed warranty lifespan on the module so really, really good process overall and you’re able to pay it back really quickly compared to what the lifespan of the system is.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. The difficulty with solar is you can dive as deep as you want. If you look at it from a general playing field, like I had mentioned, that’s a fair number to go with. But if you start factoring in, and this is where it gets a little bit interesting, is if you start factoring in property value increase, the ability to sell carbon offsets, which isn’t available in every market, but in Alberta, it is. Are you planning on charging your electric vehicle with solar? Is there some other sort of mechanism, maybe even a heat pump that you’re utilizing that energy for versus using traditional forms of energy? You can start adjusting that a significant amount but being conservative is better if we stay away from those from a general standpoint.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, I think it’s important after you got that payback, it’s free electricity on an annual average basis from that point forward for the life that you have the panels. I do want to say, actually, I want to thank one of our listeners who when we talked about electric car charging last time, I talked about the fact that I’m charging up at night and the person contacted me to inform me that if I have solar, I should be charging during the day because I’m basically getting half-priced power.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jackie Forrest:
And so, I’ve totally changed my charging and I think that is, I haven’t done the calculation yet, but that will shorten my payback because now, all the electricity going into our car is going to be half the price of what it would be otherwise.
Peter Tertzakian:
So charge between, say, 2:00 and 3:00 in the afternoon or something like that when you get-
Jackie Forrest:
Yeah. You have to do it on your… We don’t charge every day in a lot of times we are home when we have solar production.
Peter Tertzakian:
Hey, I want to pick up on this idea that you mentioned about house value. I haven’t talked to any real estate folks but have you talked to real estate people? Does solar panel add to the resell value of the house? If I spend $15,000 on a house, am I going to get it back because somebody’s going to pay me a $15,000 premium on top of the regular house value? Is that?
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. Generally, it can be looked upon that way. There’s a few different mechanisms when it comes to selling a home that are enabled once you have solar. One is the apples to apples conversation. A lot of the houses that are going up in Alberta right now or even in Canada in general are cookie cutter, right? You’re going into these developments. If one house has solar and the other house doesn’t have solar, that value proposition of moving into a house with less utility bills is becoming extremely enticing so that’s that first piece. That itself doesn’t necessarily have a dollar value. It just says, “Hey, this house has solar, this one doesn’t, you might as well go with this one.”
Gursh Bal:
The second layer though, when we’re talking to actual realtors and we have case studies as well too, of homes that have sold with solar on them, generally we’ll go anywhere from 3% to 5% higher in value in relation to homes in the area but there is a cliff with that as well too. If you have a house that’s over $650,000 or $700,000, that percentage is going to shrink a fair amount.
Peter Tertzakian:
Sure. Of course. Yeah.
Jackie Forrest:
Yeah. It’s what I’m saying.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. But you’re able to recuperate the value for solar, for sure.
Jackie Forrest:
All right. Well, let’s talk about my article. So one limitation that we both found with solar, well, Peter maybe not so much because he has a Powerwall, but it’s generally the solar’s there in the day like I could charge my car in the day but at night, I’m dependent on the grid for my power because there’s nothing coming off my solar panels. The solution to that is to put a battery system in your home and Peter, I think you’re pretty rare. I don’t think too many… You’ve done that but not a lot of people Alberta have done that. Would that be the case?
Gursh Bal:
That is the case. We are seeing a fair increase in it though and it comes down from the conversation that is this economical? Does this make sense for me to do this on my home? It can be if you’re in the right situation. Well, we ultimately end up saying with batteries and this is just the nature of where they are right now is it only takes one blackout for that system to pay itself out, that’s the known in the industry.
Gursh Bal:
But the other scenario where the batteries actually start to make a lot sense is what does your lifestyle look like? Are you over consuming and are you in a situation where you need more capacity? Are you able to set it up so it reduces your overall energy consumption in the home so that you can add more things? So batteries themselves aren’t necessarily fully unlocked. The other major issue that we see with batteries right now is availability. In our supply chain, solar panels aren’t as big of a deal, the racking isn’t a big deal, charging stations are, it’s the batteries that we have the greatest difficulty of getting our hands on.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. But here’s the thing, you can get a battery in electric car, right?
Gursh Bal:
Yeah.
Jackie Forrest:
That’s a workaround.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. The Ford F-150 that’s coming out, the new pickup truck, that’s all electric.
Gursh Bal:
The Lightning. Yeah.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. So it’s going to have a bidirectional mode. And so, talk about that. How does that alter how you wire up the power electronics in the house?
Gursh Bal:
It doesn’t really change much. The reason being is that these vehicles, the battery packs that are in them are significantly bigger than what you would get out of, let’s say, a Powerwall or the SolarEdge battery pack. It can be anywhere from four to eight times larger. So when you talk about, let’s say the Ford Lightning charging a typical home, so let’s say anywhere between 1400 to 1600 square feet above grade, it has the potential to back that house up, up to 10 days if certain loads are dedicated-
Peter Tertzakian:
Loads are dedicated like your refrigerator, like your-
Gursh Bal:
Exactly. But if you take it the whole house, usually it’s three days. If you have solar on top of that, it’s not just three days, it’s three days plus the solar’s ability to keep charging that battery up over and over again.
Peter Tertzakian:
So you’re saying basically that I’m personally behind on my technology already.
Gursh Bal:
There’s a chance but the nice thing is you have a collector’s edition Tesla, the Powerwall, right?
Peter Tertzakian:
I do. Yeah.
Gursh Bal:
So there’s a good chance that might be worth more money so maybe you’ll make something off of it.
Peter Tertzakian:
Okay. Sell the Tesla, buy a Ford 150.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, I think the Tesla is going to have that. In fact, I was just reading that they’re doing a pilot somewhere in the US of the bidirectional, that is coming. But this is actually what got me to write the article is, right now, if the power were to go out, I can’t actually use the power off my roof because I don’t have a battery. But then I’m sitting there thinking, “Well, I have this massive battery sitting in my car right here,” and the F-150 got me thinking, “What a value that would be for people,” especially as we’re seeing more extreme weather and more outages. I think more and more people, especially if you’ve already bought an electric car, it’s like a free option now to be able to back up the power in your home. And then, of course, you need some resiliency so why wouldn’t you add solar at that point? So that it’ll enable you to go many days if the power is out.
Jackie Forrest:
I did a little math. If you think of the value of these vehicles, just on their battery, they’re almost for free. So the F-150 Lightning, that 100kW battery, if I were to price it out like the Tesla wall is the equivalent price, it would be about $80,000 US to buy that much battery storage. And so, that’s what those cars are retailing for so it’s almost like a free battery of that size that you’re getting in the vehicle if you value that. And so, next time the power goes out and if you are someone who has an electric car, you’re going to be like, “Well, why am I not accessing that energy?”
Peter Tertzakian:
Right. Well, let’s carry this one step further though. The utilities that supply the home. How are they thinking about this? Because ultimately, if a lot of people put solar on their roofs and they have battery backups and so on, it means less and less electricity purchase from the grid. And so, we’re taking market share away from the centralized utility so how are they thinking about this?
Gursh Bal:
That’s a really interesting question because fundamentally, anytime we do anything as an organization, and the reason I want to start there versus diving into the utilities perspective is it’s all about the end user. The scary thing about the direction that we’re heading in where energy demands are higher than ever before and they’re constantly increasing, energy prices are higher than ever before and they seem to be increasing, hopefully we’ll see some stability there, is that the end user is suffering.
Gursh Bal:
There’s people who can afford solar and people who can’t afford solar. But the reality is, there’s a fair amount of people who can’t afford their electricity bills so the utility companies are starting, I hope, to look at this from the perspective of, “We need to do something either way.” If we don’t do something that’s affordable, which solar is for the utility company because it costs them nothing to reduce the burden on the grid, then they’re going to end up in a situation where they have people storming the barn in a sense. There’s going to be really angry people. So it’s not that solar is a threat to them, it’s a necessity and that’s why we always… The running joke that… I guess it’s not even a joke but the running thing that we say, and ironically enough, this ties back to Zeno, ties back to Greece, ties to democracy-
Peter Tertzakian:
Stoicism. Yeah.
Gursh Bal:
Is that solar is the most democratic form of energy that we currently have available.
Peter Tertzakian:
So basically, each home becomes a micro utility that is part of the mesh of the total grid central utility. It all works together.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we talked about solar being financially viable and environmentally viable. The one layer that’s generally missed is it’s socially viable. It’s that when you have that extra energy, and you guys just mentioned that at the start of the show that you have a certain amount of energy being produced, maybe only 15% of that is going to your house right now and the rest is going to your neighbors. So that’s that big community aspect is that your neighbourhood now has less burden on it and less requirement from the big wire lines that are coming into those areas so you’re doing a, I hate to put in these words but I think it makes sense, you’re almost doing a community service.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. I mean, I’m looking at my app and actually, I just noticed 74%, I guess 3/4, of the electricity I’m producing is going back into the grid.
Gursh Bal:
If that’s the case and your house is that size and the houses next to it are the equivalent size, then that’s fair to say, three of your neighbours are also powered by solar right now.
Jackie Forrest:
Right. And-
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. Actually, the guy across the street, he has a solar panel. Yeah.
Gursh Bal:
So the whole block? There you go.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, and when people talk about electric cars and the burden it’s going to be when everyone plugs in the cars and what that’s going to do in terms of the need to increase the capacity of the distribution system, I’m thinking, “Well, if you just got everyone to get solar and you created price incentives, that almost exist today, that you charge off your own solar, it could reduce the burden and the cost to society for electric cars being rolled out.”
Jackie Forrest:
Hey, but before we get onto that though, I wanted to ask you, now this F-150 is very new. I don’t even know that you can get one today and then probably a big, long lineup for them even if you can, but are you starting to see early signposts that consumers are interested in this? Like people that have solar already or that have bought an EV are asking you about how they can install a system like this?
Kai Fahrian:
Yeah. A lot of people are looking into it. The F-150, I think, is going to be personally one of the game changing vehicles just because electric vehicles are something that… Trucks are a big staple here in Alberta for example. People want to have a truck and so, I think the F-150 is going to be that driver. We’ve had people reach out to us a lot about it and people that already have orders have bought it.
Kai Fahrian:
One of the things with us is that we look at the whole system beforehand. So rather than just take it into account and saying, “Hey, you’re getting a solar system.” We look at, “Okay, what is three years? What does five years down the road look like? Can we integrate these solutions into it as well?” So the F-150 side of things, it’s a fairly easy tie in point to what’s already installed in their home to be able to get that backup system so it’s just like an automatic transfer switch that they can have that home backup from the EV which is the truck itself.
Jackie Forrest:
All right. I do think other manufacturers are going to come out with that. I think this is going to create the competitive pressure to start to see it in other electric car models as well.
Peter Tertzakian:
Are you guys involved at all now in microgrids like more than just one household, like community level solar installations?
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. The conversation’s been more rampant than ever before when it comes to microgrids. We work with quite a few builders across the province who are large volume builders that are doing 500 plus homes a year. One of them, I won’t name them just because obviously, making sure that name is maintained. They’re having conversations about developing their communities with microgrids right out of the gate.
Gursh Bal:
The conversation comes back down to two things. It’s always a relationship between battery storage and solar. But we are navigating through the waters of make it ready for batteries but take the solar into consideration, centralize the actual array versus doing it over multiple properties and go into the volume perspective and reduce the overall materials, the burden, and things of that nature whether it be a centralized car port that has bifacial solar panels that allows a certain amount of light to come through so children can play outside during the summertime. Because let’s be realistic as well too, last summer was scorching hot. It wasn’t okay for children to be outside in the weather and because of our altitude, it’s also not safe from the UV standpoint. So there’s a lot of conversations being had about centralized areas that are safer to play because of solar so we’re seeing some pretty interesting stuff happen.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. So to be clear, so you would basically build a solar in the park of a community but almost cover the park but you’d actually get some solar through it so that people would have some sun but not the intense sun?
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. Bifacial solar panels generate energy on both sides. So there’s the front side of the panel which is, if it’s a 400 watt panel, it’ll generate that. On the back side, it’ll generate an additional 15% with light that’s hitting the ground and basically reflecting and refracting underneath. Those panels will allow about 20% of the normal light through but it’s scattered because it’s going through the panel. So it’s nice and bright underneath still but the benefit is that the direct UV light’s not hitting you so it’s cooler and it provides a lot of additional benefits like snow off the ground so those outdoor play areas can be used around.
Gursh Bal:
These systems aren’t necessarily too hard to develop and they can be installed over large areas. Now, that does seem like a groundbreaking thing but this has been happening all over the world for a fair amount of time. The UAE and other areas in Central Asia have been doing it for a long time because they need to. It’s a lot hotter there. They’ve had a lot of these considerations that we haven’t had until recently so there’s a roadmap that can be copied and pasted here quite easily that we utilize.
Jackie Forrest:
So I have a question because Peter and I had a debate about this but I was thinking, “Well, if everyone starts to get their EVs and their solar panels to create more resiliency, it would make sense to connect up more homes, and you’re telling me maybe even a central area to create more solar production, and there’d be huge savings,” because I looked at my power bill and over half my power bill is non-energy charges.
Jackie Forrest:
So if you could actually do that and then not need the utility anymore, there could be huge savings there, right? The paybacks could be much faster. But I think that probably could happen in the Southern US where you have maybe more reliable solar, but up here in Canada because of our winters I just don’t know if that’s going to be possible.
Peter Tertzakian:
To go off grid completely.
Jackie Forrest:
To go off grid completely. Yeah.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. That’s where the conversation’s always really interesting in our area. We use the term over the balance of a year is where solar really makes sense if you’re grid tied. When you’re not tied to the grid though, that’s where the interesting conversation comes around like renewable natural gas or things that might actually make more sense today.
Gursh Bal:
But solar in itself, if it was a standalone mechanism in the area that we’re in, off grid without any battery support or the ability to have a generator kick in in those really short days, becomes a difficult conversation. Now, the interesting thing is we look at a calculation called Days Of Snow On The Ground. In Calgary, specifically, it’s anywhere between 70 to 85 and those are the days that you have to keep a little bit of focus on. So when you’re talking about decentralized areas where you have microgrids, it just comes down to having a good maintenance team on hand, being able to make sure those systems are cleaned, and then also having some supplementary backup that might only kick in anywhere from 25 to 35 days a year.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. So you might have a gas generator that backs up in the winter.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah.
Jackie Forrest:
Right.
Peter Tertzakian:
Really? 75? I mean, most people think it’s 275.
Gursh Bal:
Edmonton’s is bad and Toronto’s is actually right around 70 as well too. It’s an interesting weathered note that most people aren’t aware of but it’s readily available online.
Peter Tertzakian:
But Southern Alberta is one of the sunniest places in Canada, in fact. I think it is.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. Even for panel efficiency, because of our altitude, the cooler temperatures, a solar panel here in optimal conditions is Top 20 in the world for performance.
Peter Tertzakian:
Right. So, okay. I sense we’re getting our audience excited about this whole thing, but at the end of the day, I come back to, how does the average family find $15,000, $20,000 to spend on this thing? Surely, there’s got to be some financing options that are potentially emerging out of this. Isn’t there? Because especially in today’s environment of high inflation, how do you put groceries on the table? It’s not like $15,000 lying around.
Gursh Bal:
No, it’s definitely not. There’s three different methods that we recommend and a lot of the times… I suppose we’re known for this with our clients. If they don’t have the money and they’re tight on bills, we try to advise them otherwise and it’s just because we want to protect the consumer at the end of the day while simultaneously protecting the industry.
Gursh Bal:
But when we’re looking at the opportunity that exists right now, we work with a few different banks. One of the ones I’ll name here that’s done an excellent job in the industry is ATB. They do prime plus 2%, it’s over 15 years, it could be paid down at any single time. Generally, what happens with that specific plan that ATB offers, the savings from solar are greater than the cost of the financing so they end in a net positive situation.
Gursh Bal:
In some cases though, if a system doesn’t have the right exposure, let’s say it’s north facing, for example, or predominantly east facing with a little bit of a north, it won’t work out. We’re talking about systems that have good consideration east, southwest exposure or just south exposure. That’s where we come in, we do those designs and help out but those systems are achieving greater than parity.
Gursh Bal:
The second layer is we found some interesting data, there’s a lot of individuals that have lines of credit that are available that aren’t being utilized. Depending on, obviously we’ve had some increases recently in rates, that’s another good option as well too. If somebody’s not utilizing that but they have a bill that’s unavoidable, then that can be utilized by solar.
Gursh Bal:
The last one, which is the third one, which is our favorite is leasing. So there’s a really huge movement in the United States and other countries across the world, which we’re going to be seeing here in Canada soon, where getting behind it as well, is rather than having a conversation with an individual of saying, “Hey, give me your money,” it’s, “Hey, just give me access to your roof. You don’t have to pay for the equipment. You don’t have to put any money up front. You don’t get all the savings, mind you, but you don’t have to have any risk on the front end. We just need to use your roof. We want to install solar on it and we share the benefits of the system once it’s producing energy and selling back to the grid.”
Jackie Forrest:
Well, that’s interesting because I mentioned that in my article because I did a bunch… You know I love listening to podcasts, Peter, and I’m listening to these podcasts about Europe and US and people are talking about zero down leasing and that’s not available here today but you’re saying that you think that’s something that will come fairly soon. I think that would make a big difference because if it’s zero down and then you just pay the payments based on your savings, I think that is a lot more acceptable to a lot more people.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah, absolutely. It makes it a lot easier.
Peter Tertzakian:
Why don’t we tackle some of the myths or questions that we sort of get, “Okay, if it hails it’s going to shatter the solar panels,” is that true?
Kai Fahrian:
So, yeah. That’s not true. When it comes to the panels themself, they have a Class 4 rating so they can take hail for about three to four hours, golf ball size at about 100 miles per hour so super heavy hail. A good example of that was three years ago when there was that huge hailstorm in the Northeast, we have a bunch of systems there and we actually had a big commercial system there and only one panel was shattered, it actually came down to a manufacturer defect. I think it was the third worst hailstorm we’ve had in Canada’s history so it was pretty impactful. So yeah, that’s not something to worry about. Yeah.
Peter Tertzakian:
Okay. If I drill a bunch of holes in the roof to put the brackets on, to put the solar panels in the brackets, my roof is going to start leaking.
Kai Fahrian:
Yeah. Another common one. No. So when we do the footings, it’s an engineered system. So depending on what type your roof is, for example, we’ll take yours, yours was a metal roof so it’s a seam clamp solution actually clamps right onto the seam so that’s no penetrations. Then when it comes down to the penetration side, it’s actually a system that’s fully engineered that goes into the roof and pretty much, yeah, there’s no way that anything can leak and we back that with our warranties as well.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, that’s an important thing because there was a lot of drilling going on. I have to tell you when ours was getting installed and I’m like, “They’re putting holes in my roof,” but not every installer has that so I think that’s something important for people to consider. So maybe just explain that, like you should be asking people if they’re insured for what?
Kai Fahrian:
A big one is making sure that they’re… WCB is something that you have to have in Alberta to be an operating company but pretty much, that they’re looking at what are the products that they’re using, that they’re actually an engineered solution that’s been tested and tried in different areas. So for example, one that we commonly use is RT-MINI so it’s a tested solution for the climate here. Because the big thing in Canada is we get swings of 35 plus to negative 35 so huge temperature swings which can affect that as well.
Kai Fahrian:
So when you’re looking at that, looking for that, looking for liability insurance, so making sure that they have a certain amount of liability insurance with the company, those are your main things and then just making sure that they’re an accredited company. So when it comes to reviews online, always a big one when you’re looking for a company, look at the Google side of things and what are people saying. Don’t just look at, “Hey, it’s five stars.” What are those actual reviews that people are saying about that company and does it go into depths of everything when it comes to the process? Not just, “Hey, this is a great solar system.” So those are the main points.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. You’ve mentioned insurance though and asked that they insure your panels and any damage to your home, is that the other thing?
Kai Fahrian:
Yeah. So it’s just that they have a liability insurance for the work itself.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. That’s called liability-
Kai Fahrian:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jackie Forrest:
That would include that if you did eventually get water in your home, damage, it would be covered by that?
Kai Fahrian:
Yeah. It’d be covered by their insurance company and then, obviously, outside of their warranty or whatever that looks like as well for their companies.
Jackie Forrest:
You installed solar here for a long time, has that happened to people?
Kai Fahrian:
We have not seen anything directly. We’ve seen some companies, I guess during the incentive from the Alberta government, it went from… What was it? 15 to about 200 companies within a few months.
Peter Tertzakian:
Installers, installing companies-
Kai Fahrian:
Installers. So that was a big thing where there was companies, we call them fly by night, kind of companies. They were coming in and creating a bit of issues. Now, we don’t know exactly if there was problems created for people’s homes but they were coming in with products that weren’t as superior to the ones that we’re using.
Peter Tertzakian:
Right. So regardless, you got to know what you’re doing.
Kai Fahrian:
100%.
Peter Tertzakian:
Hire a reputable installer that has skilled labour force. So talk about that, are you having trouble finding people in this environment?
Kai Fahrian:
Skilled labor force, we work directly with SAIT and NAIT to be able to actually get electricians from their programs. So when it comes to the actual installs, we use only certified electricians so a big part of that is we use the electrician with the apprentices. So getting access to them, hasn’t been as big of a challenge and I think it’s because, again, we’re an exciting industry, we have very good benefits, we offer really good culture within the company, and we’re able to… People want to work in this industry. People are excited about it. We’re lucky enough that everybody within the company, they’re excited about doing what they do. Actually, a lot of our individuals that come work with us are referrals of other people so, “Hey, I work for Zeno currently. I really like what I’m doing. I want to work with them as well,” so they’re bringing their friends over that are then working for the company too. So it hasn’t been as big of a challenge but it’s definitely something that’s looming within all industries, right? To try to find the right people.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. Well, this has been a great conversation. We are going to put a link to your website in the show notes and we want to thank you for joining the podcast and also congrats on your recent June 8th event. Now, Peter, I know you participated in that. It was called Zeno Lead the Charge with Solar Energy. But what’s interesting about that, maybe for our listeners, is there was a video featured of the installation you had at your home so we’re going to put a link to that video in the show notes.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. It’s a documentary. Yeah. Yeah. I’m a movie star.
Jackie Forrest:
Yeah. So see Peter, the movie star. Maybe you’ve only heard him, now you get to see him too so check out that link.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah, no. It was a great couple days when you did that installation. So hey, Zeno, residential solar installer here in Alberta, real success story. Kai Fahrian, Gursh Bal, thank you very much for joining us.
Gursh Bal:
Yeah. Thank you for supporting us on our journey to 1 million homes by 2040.
Kai Fahrian:
Appreciate it. Thank you.
Jackie Forrest:
Thank you and thanks to our listeners. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us on the app that you listen to and tell someone else about us.
Speaker 2:
For more ideas and insights, visit arcenergyinstitute.com.