First Nations, Future Energy and Politics: An Interview with MLA Ellis Ross
This week, our guest is Ellis Ross, an MLA in the British Columbia Legislature since 2017, representing the Skeena riding for the BC United political party (formerly the Liberal Party). His region includes the communities of Kitimat and Terrace on the northern coast of British Columbia.
Ellis also currently serves as the Shadow Minister for Energy and LNG. Before being elected to the British Columbia legislature, Ellis Ross was the Chief Councillor for the Haisla Nation, in that position, he signed an agreement with an LNG developer to build a plant on the Haisla Nation reserves.
Here are some of the questions that Peter and Jackie asked Ellis: Why did you enter provincial politics and why have you decided to run in the next federal election for the Conservative Party? How has the LNG Canada project impacted people in your community? What is the status of LNG Canada? What is the status of Cedar LNG, a smaller project in collaboration with the Haisla Nation and Pembina Pipeline Corporation also located in Kitimat? Is BC’s requirement for net zero LNG by 2030 effectively a ban on new LNG development? What is the status of the transmission line and electricity supply, if LNG must be net zero by 2030? How do you think Canada should tackle the climate challenge and energy projects differently? What is the potential for blue ammonia shipments by rail and tanker from the Northern West Coast to Asia?
Other content referenced in this podcast:
- Edison Motors is a privately owned Canadian Clean Technology Company. In 2023, we built Canada’s first Production Electric Hybrid Truck; consisting of Edison make Powertrain, Chassis and Cab.
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Episode 229 transcript.
Speaker 1:
The information and opinions presented in this ARC Energy Ideas podcast are provided for informational purposes only and are subject to the disclaimer link in the show notes.
Speaker 2:
This is the Arc Energy Ideas Podcast with Peter Tertzakian and Jackie Forrest. Exploring trends that influence the energy business.
Jackie Forrest:
Welcome to the Arc Energy Ideas podcast. I’m Jackie Forrest.
Peter Tertzakian:
And I’m Peter Tertzakian, and welcome back. Well, Jackie as the Trans Mountain Pipeline, it looks like it’s going to be finished and up and running here shortly. I started reminiscing about pipeline politics in Canada and following the pipeline scene, which you and I have been doing for, I don’t know, well over a decade, if not longer, but I was sort of reminiscing about the Northern Gateway Pipeline. And taking my mind back to around 2012 while I was on the pipeline route trying to find out more as I traversed British Columbia from Prince George all the way to the coast, to Terrace and Kitimat, and the Haisla Nation. And in that travel, I met a very special person, Ellis Ross, who we are delighted to have with us today.
Ellis is an MLA in the British Columbia Legislative Assembly. He’s been there since 2017. He represents the riding of Skeena for the BC United Political Party, which was formerly the Liberal Party. So, we want to talk about a whole bunch of things with Ellis about the Haisla Nation, BC politics, pipeline politics, federal politics, you name it, right? So, Ellis Ross, welcome.
Ellis Ross:
Good to be here, guys.
Jackie Forrest:
Great. Well thanks for joining us. Maybe we could start just by getting the audience to know you better. Tell us about yourself. I mean, I think people would be interested to know you were the Chief counselor for the Haisla Nation, and then why did you decide to get into provincial politics after that?
Ellis Ross:
I was a counselor for eight years before that, so I got my training in terms of all the politics surrounded. Then I became Chief for six years, and then I resigned because LNG was stalled. And it was a massive stall. We had put all our effort into getting LNG Canada approved, and so two weeks before the announcement, LNG Canada told us in confidence that they would not proceed with the final investment decision. And to us, we had done everything we could to put the pieces in place. We thought the final piece was final investment decision. And so, when they told us that, it just took the wind out of our sails. And so, I figured, I’ve done everything I could, I traveled all over the world, I tried to research as much as I could about LNG and energy, and it still isn’t enough. I think it’s time for me to entertain those requests for me to run for MLA or MP for that matter. So, I decided to resign and run for MLA.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay.
Peter Tertzakian:
Well, when you say to us, you’re talking about the Haisla Nation, the Haisla people, for our audience, can you give a sense of the geographic location of the Haisla Nation?
Ellis Ross:
We’re a small little native community, Kitamaat Village as opposed to the town site, which is the municipality of Kitimat, seven miles down the road, and we’re on the waterfront. We actually, from our village, we look across the channel, we see all the industrial development that’s been there for the past 70 years, 70. We were one of the most poorest bands in BC up until about probably 10 years ago.
You look at the contrast, right? You look at the city of Kitimat, very wealthy per capita in terms of wages, got all the services, then you traveled to my reserve, we’ve got nothing. We absolutely have nothing. We’re begging for money; we’re begging for infrastructure. And so, my band, we were a community of probably 800, but our band list is about 1,000. And basically, yeah, there was a long struggle trying to get through the politics of Indian Act and energy, and forestry, and mining. But we finally got a good place where people understood the facts and now we’re one of the most successful, if not one of the most wealthy bands in BC. This all happened within a 10-year span.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah, I remember a dozen years ago going to the Haisla Village and recognizing the stark contrast and that wealth disparity.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, so when entering provincial politics, you took a real interest in energy. You’ve been a shadow minister for energy right now, but you’ve also been the opposition critic for climate and the environment. And now, we learn in early 2024, the federal Conservative Party announced that you will run in the next election for the Skeena-Bulkley Valley region. Just tell us why are you deciding to run for federal politics, and how do you see the prospects of you being elected in the next election?
Ellis Ross:
Well, originally, about seven years ago, I was requested to run for the federal Conservatives as well as the BC Liberals at the time, they’re now called the BC United Party. And well, previous to that, I figured, you know what? I’m not smart enough. Those guys are way above my pay grade. I’m not very educated as those guys.
But then when I took a look at what some of these politicians were saying and I realized, hey, that’s not true what that guy’s saying. How can this be? How can a politician be stating this kind… so the more research, the more I understood, the House of Commons is called the House of Commons for a reason. It’s common people representing the common mass.
And so, I understood by researching government that I could be a voice. And so, when the conservatives asked me again to run this time around, I looked at the state of BC in terms of its politics, around the economy, around clean energy, around oil, around gas, around debt, deficits. And I just thought, you know what? It’s an incredible honor to be asked to run Reds Chief Council of my nation. It’s an incredible honor to be asked to be an MLA. It’s an even bigger honor to be asked to consider charting out sort of a country. The principles I’ve developed over the last 15 years still remain the same, and I’m just saying, look, I can take that to Ottawa and represent BC, if not Canada, on an international stage.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, let’s talk about it. What are some of those principles you want to take into federal politics?
Ellis Ross:
Number one is consider who you work for. You work for the people of Canada, and you’re not really supposed to be making life hard for Canada. And you’ve got a duty internationally, not only just in terms of energy, but in terms of trade, in terms of diplomatic relations, in terms of, well, what we’re doing globally, either in isolation or in partnership. There’s such a big, big world out there.
And my principles have always been, yes, we’ve got to address these big issues, but you can’t forget just the regular person that just wants to make a living, wants to buy a house, wants to go on vacation, RSP, you can’t forget those people. Because that’s where I came from. I came from one of the most disadvantaged populations of Canada, First Nations. And I got so fed up with the lip service of politicians making big announcements and signing these big declarations, and then I go back to my village, I find out things remain the same, or got worse. So I just think the principles of thoroughly looking at an issue, the good and the bad, and make the decision based on all Canadians and based on the country, I think that’s needed. Canadian level, but at the provincial level, riding level, municipal level, just be honest.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah, I mean I think those are very noble aspirations at the Canadian level. Bringing it down to Skeena-Bulkley Valley, so the Haisla Village, as you point out, has done very well with the LNG. The interior and the Bulkley Valley region, which I’ve been to several times, is also stark in terms of its economic realities. But what are the people they’re saying, and how do they reflect, I’d say the broader view of, I’ll call it rural BC?
Ellis Ross:
I just got back from an event in the interior there yesterday. And it’s pretty tough being a farmer in BC in Canada, just in terms of inflation. Forget about the politics. The politics of getting rid of fertilizer made from natural gas, for example. That’s a cost pressure that’s being put on farmers, and they’re going to have to figure out a way to cover that cost, which I know what it is. You’re going to pass that cost on the consumer. That’s what it’s going to do, if not drive the farmer out of business.
The one thing that I did talk to farmers, I was sitting at a table with a bunch of farmers and they’re farmers/businesspeople. And I was quite surprised that the one thing they said, they said, “Oh my God, that pipeline came through our region, that was a huge benefit to us. All those workers, all those companies, all those contractors came into our town. They bought up services, they came to our restaurants, they bought up all our goods.” I think the one guy said it was a 75% increase in terms of the economy. It was a small little town, and we were talking about, it’s too bad we couldn’t sustain it, and I agreed.
We were talking about, it’s too bad we couldn’t sustain it, and I agreed.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, let’s talk a little bit about what’s going on in Kitimat. Can you tell us the status of the LNG Canada phase one? The project we understand is under construction and just a bit about how that project has impacted the community.
Ellis Ross:
We had a different kind of impact quite ironically, because there was rules in place where the workers couldn’t interact so much with our community as much as other communities did. And so a lot of the business owners complained, especially restaurant owners and retail owners. But there was reasons for that, I take it. But really the impact was you couldn’t measure the impact. I had strangers stopping me in Tim Horton’s and just stopping and hugging me. I’m 26 years old, I didn’t know what I was going to do. I came here, I got a job, I got a good start in life, now I got a good wage. I’m off and running.
I know now what to do. We were talking about the traffic in Kitimat, all the industrial traffic going through, and I thought it was a bad thing and I was thinking about I’d it covered off. Well, I parked at a grocery store. And it was the summertime, my window was down, and a bunch of older guys came, and they lean in the back of my truck. They didn’t notice my truck because I got a crappy old Silverado, all of scratches and dents, and they’re all leaning on the back of the trucks and they’re all talking about the traffic. And they all started gravitating towards the idea. I said, “Yeah, but if you see how much business has come through here, you’ve seen the wages, you’ve seen what these guys are doing, you said this is the next best. Who cares about the traffic? This is a good thing. By the way, this is going to end sometime, but we should be enjoying this while we can.”
And so, I was in this conversation I got in the truck, and I walked by, I said, “Hey, morning guys.” And I walked by, and they called me, “Hey, hey, come back, aren’t you Ross?” I said, “Yeah, that’s right.” “Hey, we’re just talking about you. What do we do next year? How do we keep us up?” It was just a good time, just good positivity. Everybody was happy. Nobody was complaining. I mean, you had the odd complaint about affordability in terms of rent for the lower incomes, but overall, it was just …
I think the best story I got over and over and over was people coming to me saying, “look, my son moved home for a job. My daughter moved home”. And the best thing about it, they brought my grandchildren home because I’m a grandfather and I know what that means.
Peter Tertzakian:
Well, how you keep it going. There’s talk about the second phase of LNG Canada, but let’s talk about the first phase because it’s not quite up and running yet. Can you give us a sense where that’s at right now and when the expected start date is? I mean, we’ve heard from others, but what’s the scuttlebutt on the ground as to when the first delivery is going to take place?
Ellis Ross:
They’re pretty much completed phase one. In fact, they’re going to do the testing here pretty quick in terms of the flare stack. They’ll be pushing out all that gas out of their pipelines to test it out, and that’s what the company’s public for right now. There’s going to be a big flame, and we understand Kitimat is used to a flare stack in Kitimat because of the methanol plant that used to be here that packed up in that town. This one will be a much bigger flame. So, they’re trying to set the stage for that to prepare people for phase one, which I think they’re talking about is operational within a year. But that’s just phase one. The politics by the BC government has got it up in the air whether or not phase two will be completed as per the original specifications.
Jackie Forrest:
All right. Well, let’s come back to that because we want to talk about the BC targets for 2030. But before we get to that, could you just tell us about the Cedar LNG project also at Kitimat? It’s a project in collaboration with the Haisla Nation and Pembina Pipeline Corporation. It has not IFDed yet but tell us a bit about that project and how the community’s viewing that.
Ellis Ross:
So, this goes back to when I was a Chief Councillor. We were negotiating the infringements of our Rights and Title with LNG Canada. And a component of … the Rights and Title says there’s an economic component to Rights and Title that must be addressed. Back in those days, it was a very general statement made by the courts and nobody really figured out what it was. Everybody assumed it was revenue-sharing jobs, training dollars and all that kind of stuff.
Well, my band took it to a different level, and we said, “wait a minute, wait a minute, economic component, we think it means that we should be allowed to participate in your pipeline activities. Give us a portion of your pipeline capacity, and then we’re going to feed it into our own facility and build our own export plant.” And so, LNG Canada agreed to that, but we didn’t actually put down the technical considerations, and that’s what we’ve been battling out for the last few years with LNG Canada.
I always thought it was a really easy project to get accomplished because all you’re talking about is this certain length of pipeline coming from the plant itself to the waterfront, which is only like two kilometers. And the only big hurdle you got is going through the private land of Rio Tinto Alcan. That’s the only big hurdle. You got very little land impact, meaning there’s less environmental assessment considerations and permitting considerations because all you’re doing is docking a plant right up next to your land base. What I’m starting to understand now is that the investment climate is not so great in BC. So, when I was Chief Councillor, when this idea came out, I had investors from all over the world lining up wanting to invest and I was saying, “Get in line. We’re not even there yet.”
From what I understand, investment has been one of the biggest hurdles going forward with BC, and that’s not Haisla’s fault. I think a lot of companies around the world have looked at Canada and said, “it’s a great place, you got good environmental regulations, good rules around business, but oil and gas is not welcome in BC.” So, I think a lot of investors are starting to shy away from BC and go to other jurisdictions.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, and I think it’s so smart that it’s using one of the most difficult technical parts about LNG on our West Coast is building the massive pipeline that needs to come from the gas-producing region over to mountain ranges to get to the coast. So, you have that access. So that should help you out. But let’s talk about why investors maybe don’t want to come to BC.
We talked actually not too long ago on the podcast about the CleanBC program. It has these 2030 emission reduction targets for many sectors, not just oil and gas, but when it comes to LNG, it has an even more strict requirement. It says that LNG facilities must be net zero by 2030, which means the facilities must be, I think, mostly electrified, and that’s a significant power load to electrify a facility like that.
Now, do you view this requirement as effectively a ban on new LNG? Because there is no transmission line, there is no electricity supply, so effectively it’s very difficult to meet that. So it’s not maybe much different than what Biden’s proposing in terms of new permits. It’s just done a different way.
Ellis Ross:
Without a doubt. You’re basically killing the industry policy-wise. I’ve seen this before where government makes this grand announcement and then they spin it later on, and then they throw in other measures like carbon credits or something else to kind of define that net zero. A lot of what the CleanBC program says doesn’t really make much sense in terms of what they’re talking about for LNG Canada. I’ve been part of this, by the way, two times prior. Under the former BC liberal party, they proposed upgrading the infrastructure line from Prince George to Kitimat. So, I was part of those consultations, and I was dealing with BC Hydro and how to deal with it, where to put it, how much it’s going to cost, what’s it going to be for, and both plans failed.
Now we got a third round count out, and this one here is not about upgrade from Prince George to Kitimat but Prince George to Terrace. Man, I almost swallowed my gum when I asked the minister about cost estimates because I saw cost estimates before, but when the minister told me there was 3 billion minimum upgrades, I started questioning who’s going to use it and who’s going to pay for it. Very broad, general, vague answers. And then finally, the minister said, “Well, there’s a lot of user groups up in northern BC that are mining that will need this electricity.” And so I was saying, “Well, aren’t we talking about LNG Canada? Aren’t we talking about Cedar? Aren’t we talking about Cedar? How are we going to do this in time for their target dates for completion? Because I know LNG Canada, their infrastructure is not easy to retrofit if they’re building for gas turbines and gas substations and then all of a sudden, they got to retrofit that.
Money doesn’t wait. Money doesn’t discriminate. It’s there. It’s done. And so, one of the questions I have is, so, okay, if they are forced to retrofit, who’s going to cover that cost? Because this is not the company’s fault. They’re doing it upon the plans that are approved by BC. And usually, when BC makes a mistake policy-wise, BC ends up eating that cost, which means the taxpayers. So, I’m not really clear on how the Clean BC action plan fits into this LNG plant, this $30, 40 billion plant.
Jackie Forrest:
And just for clarification, LNG Canada Phase 2, it has its approval to use the natural gas and that was given before this requirement?
Ellis Ross:
No. No.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. It doesn’t?
Ellis Ross:
Phase 2 is not approved. Phase 1 is approved as per the gas turbines, but Phase 2 is not slated to be approved until 2030.
Jackie Forrest:
And then the Cedar LNG, when they announced the project, they said they would be net zero by 2030. But the question is this transmission line, and it’s something like a 500-kilovolt transmission line from Prince George to Terrace. And can you just tell us, I know there’s a lot of debate about the cost and who pays, but when do you think that actually could be built realistically? And is electricity supply also a concern? Because that’s just a lot of loads, that’s industrial load. And we know we have Site C, but we just learned a few weeks ago, we had Roger Dall’Antonia from Forti on saying that that power maybe needed another parts of BC.
Ellis Ross:
I went and toured an LNG plant, lower mainland. And it was just a couple of months after that rupture in the Enbridge National Gas pipeline. Do you guys remember that? Outside… I think it was Prince George. So, they had to shut down the pipeline. And so, when I was turning this plant just out of accident, the guy blurted out and said, “Well, BC was really concerned that we had to get this pipeline up and running again.” And I thought, “Geez, that doesn’t make sense. They don’t like LNG; they don’t like pipelines. Why would they be concerned?”
Well, because when the pipeline got shut down, so many people switched to electricity. They were in danger of the grid blacking out. That’s how sensitive the energy grid is in BC. And it doesn’t make any sense when BC is shutting down pipeline expansion to Okanagan for heating when you’ve got an electric grid that can’t handle all the energy needs of BC. So, can you imagine? And from what the guy said in the lower mainland, they said they were at least 48 hours away from the electricity grid failing. Can you imagine the lower mainland blacking out? And I’ve seen blackouts in Germany, I’ve seen what happens. People panic. They get frightened in the dark. This energy question I think is, we’re too far in a political side discussing it. I’m not talking reality. Yeah.
Peter Tertzakian:
Well, let’s talk a reality. So, Ellis, you’ve said that these government policies like Clean BC are killing industry with policy and investment. So, you’ve been right at the local level. Now the provincial level, you’re going to the federal level. What do you think needs to be done? What are the solutions. You’ve identified the problems, the things that are bothering you. So, what is your solution to these issues?
Ellis Ross:
Well, my approach has always been, to be honest, good and bad. When LNG came to town, when we started entertaining LNG back in 2004, we asked and forced them to answer all the negative questions about LNG. And back in those days, if a company didn’t disclose to me the full negative impact of their project, that meant I didn’t trust them. I would hold them to an even higher standard. I didn’t have the really good one-on-one skills to be diplomatic, to be friendly when I found out that you didn’t disclose something to me. Every energy initiative has pros and cons. There’s no such thing as the energy that is absolutely a hundred percent clean, a hundred percent good for the environment. There’s no such thing. And I think we got to bring that reality to the citizens of BC and start talking energy literacy. The second thing I’d like to talk more about in terms of Ottawa is something I heard at a conference 10 years ago by a Native leader no less.
And his comment was saying, “We need a domestic energy policy, and we also need an international energy policy. If we’re going to reach all the goals we’re talking about, we got to start discussing that.” And I thought that was already in place. “What’s this guy talking about?” And so, the more I looked into it, the more I realized, “Yeah, Canada seems to be doing the energy policy off the seat of their pants. They seem to be doing it based on the political temperature.” So, when you look at affordability in Canada, for example, for some reason nobody wants to really talk about how energy affordability fits into that equation. And we got lots of energy. We got oil, we got gas, we got the byproducts of oil and gas, we got electricity. We got all sorts of energy, but nobody’s really formed that into a policy that actually keeps costs down for Canadians or British Columbians and I like that idea.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. Well, what about, I think a big challenge in this country is getting stuff done. Let’s talk about coastal gas link, which is I think a great example of some of the challenges we have. Forget about greenhouse gas policy, just getting things done. The project 670-kilometer pipeline crosses two mountain ranges, very technical projects through very remote area. The project cost looks at this moment like it could be twice what the initial estimates were. And I think that maybe end up being more than that. We know the TMX multiples higher than that in terms of its cost. Go back to Coastal Link it faced numerous work stoppages due to local opposition to the project. Considering that experience, why would another developer come and build a pipeline here in Canada? What could be changed do you think, as you think about going to Ottawa?
Ellis Ross:
Number one, the politics. Change the politics. Demonizing energy when really the energy and the benefits that come from it can actually work for Canadians. Get rid of that. And I understand it’s a massive cost and I get it. But you’ve got to equate that with a massive demand for energy around the world. We are very fortunate here in Canada. We flick on a switch, we jump in our car, we don’t think about where the energy comes from. Go to China and ask them about energy. Go to India, go to Germany. They do not take this stuff lightly anymore. I mean, China has been looking all around the world for how many years trying to get energy. It’s not easy. When you talk about cost. There are jurisdictions around the world willing to cut cost. That’s how desperate they are.
Peter Tertzakian:
So, security and costs and affordability, I mean these are big issues at the kitchen table for people, but there’s also the climate issue, the environmental side of this. And so how are you reconciling that in the community? Because when I was there, I remember there was very passionate discussions amongst indigenous people, the Haisla people about protecting the environment and climate change and so on. So how do you factor or balance into this, the climate issue with the affordability and the prosperity and the GDP and the local jobs issues?
Ellis Ross:
I’ve always looked at it through the lens of transition and affordability. You just can’t shut the lights out in terms of energy. You just can’t do it. You’d have a revolution. People will be protesting at a level you’ve never seen before. But I do like the innovation that’s coming out of companies and out of our academia. And some of it is theory, I get that. But how do you get the theory and how do you operationalize it and how do you commercialize it on a level where we can… and actually Canada’s doing a pretty good job of this. I don’t think Canada’s giving itself enough credit for how far they’ve come, but I think that Canada and BC in that matter, should be promoting innovation and actually testing out these power projects. I get a lot of people come to my office talking about these different initiatives.
And I get it, they want my support, especially in terms of energy, and I can weed out the ones that are tire kickers and I can kind of figure out the ones that are truly serious about making an impact. And I had this company in my office just a couple of days ago called Edison Motors, and when I found out these guys are coming to see me, “Okay, I put my jacket on and here we go, talking to CEOs and whatnot.” All these guys show up in hoodies and plaid work shirts and work boots. And there’s just a bunch of regular guys that develop this backyard technology in their hometown, and they’re looking for a place to locate, off the shelf technology. And they’re talking about what we can do to build a logging truck powered entirely by batteries. We can also talk about how we retrofit a diesel truck into a diesel/electric vehicle.
And the right to repair, they got it covered. And I was looking at this stuff. I said, “My god, this is so simple and so easy to understand. How come people are not banging down your door and asking to fund you?” He said, “Well, that’s our problem too. We don’t get it. We’ve got an answer to electric vehicle, not only in terms of our own personal vehicles, but on a commercial level for log trucks.” This is what Canada’s good at. You’re good at promoting the worst, ugliest stories that you can find, but you get one good news story, it’s page seven of the newspaper, and it’s a blurb. You should celebrate these guys, and you should celebrate Canada, because we are doing a good job and trying to lower the emissions of Canada, and we’re not really questioning anybody else’s emissions around the world.
Jackie Forrest:
Right, so technology is the solution to kind of innovate and find those solutions. Talking about innovative and new solutions, a new industry may be starting, a few new clean ammonia rail-to-ocean export terminals have been proposed in your region. The ammonia would be produced in Alberta, and the emissions would be captured by carbon capture storage, so it’s called blue ammonia, and then the ammonia would be transported by rail car to the West Coast and exported by ship to Asia. So, tell me about these projects. Do you think that they have a high chance of proceeding, and how will they impact some of the Northern West Coast communities?
Ellis Ross:
Yeah, it’s a great, great technology, and like other companies, they came to us because nobody else would give them any love. And when I looked at this proposal, it’s already work-in-progress. They’ve already signed the agreements with Japan. Japan is already building a facility to accept ammonia product from around the world, and they want to do business with BC and Canada. So when we started looking into it, we know ammonia’s a byproduct of natural gas. That makes a lot of sense. We’ve got a lot of natural gas in Alberta and BC. But then when I heard… and I went to visit the Japanese Consulate in Vancouver as well to kind of close the loop on that.
When I heard that Japan was actually trying to convert its society to low emissions and ammonia was a big part of that, I thought, “You know what? We’re not keeping up with the rest of the world. We’re still battling out electric vehicles, and the minerals, and where it comes from, and lithium, and how toxic and dangerous it is.” Meanwhile, other countries, using innovation, are starting to use products like ammonia. Really, I think the ammonia project you’re talking about is a done deal, and I think the only thing holding it back is the indemnification of the product being shipped by rail from Alberta to Prince Rupert, and what they’re asking is the federal government and the provincial government to indemnify those goods in the same way they indemnify oil and gas products being shipped by rail.
Peter Tertzakian:
Mm-hmm.
Ellis Ross:
Because no insurance company will touch them.
Peter Tertzakian:
I mean, ammonia is a pretty dangerous substance, so what about environmental permits and from the multitude of federal and provincial agencies, and just getting regulatory approvals? We know that can take a long time. Is that a done deal too, or where is that at?
Ellis Ross:
I was always under the assumption that the rights-of-way for rail were pretty exclusive, that you couldn’t really break into it in the same manner you could get into permits for other projects. And that’s federally mandated. And I understood. I looked into the ammonia shipments as well, in terms of the volatility and the dangerous component to it, but then I found out they’ve been doing this back East, right?
Peter Tertzakian:
Mm-hmm.
Ellis Ross:
For years. But I think what we’re talking about here is a different level. And by the way, I watched the propane shipments coming in from the Northeast of BC by rail, going to Prince Rupert. They’re big, black rail cars. And then we were thinking about the volatility and the liquids that were being exported. We’ve been doing this for years already. And I just want people to understand, hey, I’m not going to sugarcoat this for you. I get it. I get what ammonia is. But you’ve already got ammonia. You already got coal going to Prince Rupert, massive amounts of coal being export through Prince Rupert, you’ve got propane. Now let’s think about the regulations and the safety requirements of ammonia at higher level, and let’s get the government to understand this and disclose to us exactly what this entails.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, we’re running out of time, but I did want to ask you one more question. I mean, in 2006, as chief councilor for the Haisla Nation, you were involved with creating an agreement on Kitimat LNG, to build a project in the Haisla Nation Reserves. That was very early days in these types of agreements, and much has changed. Today, we’re seeing equity partnerships on large energy and infrastructure projects with indigenous communities becoming much more common, especially compared to back then. Just want your perspectives on the change you’ve seen in the last 15 years or so, and what are the benefits and challenges of these partnerships for indigenous communities?
Ellis Ross:
Yeah, I’ve been dealing with equity arrangements for the better part of 20 years, and originally, when I first got into the equity conversation for a First Nation band, I opposed it, mainly because I didn’t understand what equity meant. And if I couldn’t fully communicate that to my people, then I didn’t want to be a part of it. When I did understand what equity meant, in different forms mind you, there’s a traditional business model of what equity means. I want to be part of a company. Okay, I got to invest my own money. Or I go out and borrow money and I invest it, and over the years, I intend to get that investment back, through dividends and whatnot. And so, when I understood that I went to my people and I said, “Do you realize, somehow we’ve got to get equity, and then we give it to a company, and then we live off the interest. Then somehow, we repay the loan that we got.”
By the way, the knowledge of Indigenous people has actually leapfrogged so much in the last 20 years, but back then, a lot of people were saying, because the LNG plant they originally proposed in 2004 was an import facility worth 600 million, and I’d get questions saying, “Well, if it’s $600 million, then we should be receiving $600 million as equity payments.” No, that’s not how it works. So what I’ve seen so far now, in terms of governments actually saying that we will actually guarantee loans for equity provisions, First Nations, that is absolutely opposite of what they were saying 20 years ago, 15 years ago, even 10 years ago, and I think First Nations understanding the business model that equity provides is actually one more component of then reaching independence, so the knowledge level of First Nations has grown exponentially over the last few years, so it’s absolutely amazing to watch.
Peter Tertzakian:
Well, thank you, Ellis. That’s been a great conversation. Unfortunately, our time is up, so thank you very much Ellis Ross, MLA in the BC Legislative Assembly, and also now candidate for the federal Conservative Party in the next federal election. Good luck to you, and thank you so much for joining us and giving us a better sense of what’s happening at the local, the provincial, and the federal level.
Ellis Ross:
Thanks a lot, guys. It was a pleasure.
Jackie Forrest:
Thank you, and thanks to our listeners. If you enjoyed this podcast, please rate us on the app that you listened to and tell someone else about us.
Speaker 1:
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