Leading in a Big Way: The Future of Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) in Canada
Episode Summary
This week John Gorman, President and Chief Executive Officer at the Canadian Nuclear Association (CNA) joins the podcast. John recently wrote an op-ed titled “Examining the role of nuclear in Canada’s Emissions Reduction Plan.” Here are some of the questions Peter and Jackie asked John: What is the scale and size of the new Small Modular Reactors (SMR)? Is SMR technology safe? What about the waste issue? When will the first SMRs be in operation? Is the electricity affordable? And, do you think Canada is poised for leadership in this new generation of reactors?
If you think back to the 1960s and 70’s you might call the nuclear technology at the time Generation One. Fast forward to 2022 and it’s fair to say we’re already on Generation Three. In this episode, John Gorman, the President and CEO of the Canadian Nuclear Association explains to Jackie and Peter the advancements in the industry.
“I just remember waking up one day and reading the International Energy Agency’s report that despite the massive investments in solar and wind and the fact that it’d become so cost-competitive, we hadn’t moved the dial on the amount of clean electricity on the world’s grid in almost 20 years,” says Gorman.
“It was at 36 per cent when I started and it’s still at 36 per cent today. And so that was a real motivation for me to start looking into additional electricity sources that we would need that needed the same sort of help that solar received 20 years ago. And so here I am in the nuclear space.”
Nuclear technology provides 60 per cent of Ontario’s load and about one-third of the load in New Brunswick.
But incidents from older technologies remain vivid memories for many. Nuclear has a stigma attached to it that makes Big Nuclear a tough sell. So the industry has shifted to focus on small modular reactors – between five megawatts (MW) and 300 MW each. There are as many as 50 technologies being seriously developed around the World, a dozen of them here in Canada now going through licensing and review.
“The promise of small modular reactors has a lot to do with them being much lower cost, very open to manufacturing settings. So, we can bring down the costs quickly, financeable by the private sector. These are the things that we think will help with the quick deployment of the technology.”
But there are still questions. Is the electricity affordable? Is Canada poised to be a leader in the industry? What about the waste issue? Are SMRs safe?
Peter and Jackie put these questions and more to John Gorman in this episode of ARC Energy Ideas Podcast.
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Episode Transcript
Disclosure:
The information and opinions presented in this ARC Energy Ideas podcast are provided for informational purposes only and are subject to the disclaimer link in the show notes.
Announcer:
This is the ARC Energy Ideas podcast with Peter Tertzakian and Jackie Forrest. Exploring trends that influence the energy business.
Jackie Forrest:
Welcome to the ARC Energy Ideas podcast. I’m Jackie Forrest.
Peter Tertzakian:
And I’m Peter Tertzakian. Welcome back. So today is May 2nd, Monday. Actually Jackie, we haven’t done a commodity check for a while. What’s the price of oil and gas up? They say gas is really high.
Jackie Forrest:
Yeah. Gas is really the news here. It’s actually $7.40 at Henry Hub right now. That’s dollars per MMBTU. That is really high gas prices, something we haven’t seen in a very long time. And there’s a couple of things behind that. One is the demand of gas internationally from Europe, and that’s maxed out the LNG exports which typically do fall off this time of year.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah.
Jackie Forrest:
But the other big thing is the coal prices have really moved up and there is still coal burning going on in the US to generate power. As that price goes up, it’s kind of sets the floor for gas prices.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah, it’s an interesting dynamic. I mean, it’s the whole complex of anything combustible I’ll say has moved up. When the price of oil moves up, the price of oil and gas move up. Even the price of wood moves up because people start chopping wood and burning it because the other commodities are too expensive. So actually, what is the price of oil? And I want to come back to this gas thing for a second.
Jackie Forrest:
Right. Well, price of oil is around $100 at WTI right now. Actually, I think it’s been kind of hanging in there because there has been some headwinds, especially this China situation. I think we’re going to start to see… We’re already seeing lockdowns in China that are going to impact oil demand potentially, and million barrels a day or more being lost because of what’s happening right now. Now that short term, eventually that will pass as we know and there will be a rebound, but I think it’s going to mean a bit softer demand over the next several months. So I think oil price is hanging in pretty good considering that disruption.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah, it is. And oil is a mobility fuel in large parts so that explains that. And what happens in China is very consequential. But the gas one, I mean $7.40 in springtime, usually when the price of gas falls off it’s really quite spectacular in a sense. That has a lot of implications. And I don’t think this is a short term thing because as the United States builds out more LNG facilities to export to our European friends, I think that globalizes North American natural gas and lifts up the whole complex.
Peter Tertzakian:
And so we’ll have a whole separate podcast and discussion on that, because to me it’s one of the big mega trends that are out there in the world of energy and the changing world of energy. But it also, I mean, this sort of thing has knock on effects and that’s what we want to talk about today because as the combustion fuel complex gets more expensive, there becomes a segue for non-hydrocarbon and carbon-based fuel primary sources of energy to come in. I mean, that’s what happened in the 1970s when we had the oil price tracks, it was a segue for nuclear power to come in. And that’s what we’re going to talk about today.
Peter Tertzakian:
Again, we’ve had a few guests over the course of the podcast that we’ve done. Today I think it’s only apt given all the changes that are happening that we bring in John Gorman, president and CEO of the Canadian Nuclear Association as our special guest. Welcome, John.
John Gorman:
Thank you, Peter. And hello, Jackie.
Jackie Forrest:
John, before we get started, give our audience a sense of your background and how you came to head our nuclear industry association in Canada.
John Gorman:
Sure. Thanks Jackie. Peter and Jackie, may I just say it’s really delightful to be here speaking with you this morning. I’m a regular listener and it’s a real thrill to find myself in discussion with you. Maybe I’ll start in the late 1990s when climate change was entering a lot of our consciousness. Certainly it was mine. And I decided around that time that I’d like to marry what I was doing in my day to day work life with trying to make a contribution to confronting the climate crisis. And we were starting a family at about that time, which probably put it at the forefront of my mind. So I took a look at the work that I was doing every day, which was mostly in the large infrastructure space and made the decision firstly to shift over to only dealing with clean infrastructure.
John Gorman:
And around that time, I was appointed to the board of an electric distribution company or local distribution company as we call it here in Ontario, a large one. And it was a very, very exciting time in the electricity space in Ontario. The local distribution companies were being amalgamated. They were given all sorts of new powers, including the ability to start a share capital corporation. That allowed us to do some very interesting things, including looking at renewables and looking at smart grid.
John Gorman:
And so I found myself really being drawn into the solar world. I participated in that up until about three years ago as a developer of solar projects, as Canada’s representative to the International Energy Agency, one of their executive committee for solar, and then as the president and CEO of the Canadian Solar Industries Association. But I will say through the course of those 15 years or so, it just became increasingly clear that there was no silver bullet, that solar wasn’t going to be the silver bullet either, that the demand for clean electricity as a vital part of decarbonizing our world energy systems was going to take everything at our disposal.
John Gorman:
I just remember waking up one day and reading the International Energy Agency’s report that despite the massive investments in solar and wind and the fact that it’d become so cost competitive, we hadn’t moved the dial on the amount of clean electricity on the world’s grid in almost 20 years. It was at 36% when I started and it’s still at 36% today. And so that was a real motivation for me to start looking into additional electricity sources that we would need that needed the same sort of help that solar received 20 years ago. And so here I am in the nuclear space.
Peter Tertzakian:
So John, we’re going to do a little bit of a nuclear 101 and then talk about nuclear power in Canada. But before we do that, why don’t you also tell our audience a little bit about the Canadian Nuclear Association? That’s a fairly broad statement because Canada’s a producer of uranium, all the way to reactors. And so what types of companies does your Canadian Nuclear Association, industry association represent?
John Gorman:
Yeah, you’re right, Peter. We’ve got a very complete nuclear ecosystem here in Canada because we’ve got a long history as a Tier 1 nuclear nation. So the Canadian Nuclear Association, it’s a trade association. We represent all of the companies in the nuclear ecosystem. That would include not only those uranium mines that you spoke about, but also the utilities that are operating nuclear assets or those that aspire to. A very strong supply chain that is providing all sorts of services and components to the nuclear industry, as well as a very healthy nuclear medicine sector which is driven by our laboratories, our nuclear laboratories that we’re world leaders in. And increasingly, those isotopes are now becoming part of our mainstream business. So we represent the entire nuclear ecosystem.
Jackie Forrest:
Now, many Canadians know about the CANDU nuclear reactors that were invented here. At one point we’re leading. What happened to CANDU? Are they still being built? Is it still world leading technology?
John Gorman:
Yes, it is. It’s a story that we don’t talk about enough as Canadians. So we’ve got a very long and proud history here. As I said, a Tier 1 nuclear nation. We’ve got four nuclear stations in Canada, 19 nuclear reactors. They’re all Canadian CANDU reactors. But many people don’t realize just the amount of electricity we produce, right? It’s about 60% of Ontario’s clean electricity or electricity overall, but of course it’s emissions free. About 1/3 of New Brunswick. We have CANDU reactors in six other countries around the world. In fact, we represent about 10% of the nuclear market. We are currently very active, refurbishing plants not just here in Ontario but around the world. We’re pursuing new opportunities. I’m thinking specifically of Romania right now where there’s the need to refurbish one of their CANDU plants and build two more units. We’re collaborating with the Americans on that front. So CANDU is a stable part of the world supply of nuclear. There’s a lot of innovation going on with the CANDU technology.
Peter Tertzakian:
So CANDU is a Canadian design and there’s many different designs for nuclear reactors as much as there’s different designs for airplanes and vehicles and what have you. There’s just… But the core function of the nuclear reactors to take, we call fissile or fissionable elements like uranium, control the reaction, create a lot of heat. The heat creates steam. The steam turn to turbine and makes electricity. And that’s just the basic principle. We don’t have time really to get into all the different designs and so on. I guess, what we’re more interested in understanding is what generation of nuclear technology are we in? Because if you think back to Generation 1, which I’ll sort of put into the bracket of the ’60s and ’70s, we’ve come a long way in terms of sophistication and safety and handling of the fuels and all that kind of stuff. So if the ’60s, ’70s are sort of Generation 1, what generation are we on now?
John Gorman:
I’d say we’ve entered Generation 3. We might refer to it as that. Certainly, the first generation of reactors that you referred to, Peter, they’re a thing of the past. There’s been very significant advancements in design and safety and performance since then. I think what people don’t realize unless they really get into nuclear is that the refreshment or revitalization of the technology actually happens on a continuous basis. So we are regulated not only here at home by the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, but there’s an international regulator as well. So every time there is a new safety practice adopted, it spreads throughout the world and new innovations are incorporated into the existing reactors around the world. Here at home, we’re doing a $26 billion refurbishment of 10 of our reactors here in Ontario. And through the process of that major component replacement exercise, there’s huge innovation going into the reactors. So it’s sort of hard to call it a particular generation, but we are now seeing small modular reactors that are coming online that we refer to as Gen 3. And there are Gen 4 reactors, small modular reactors which are being developed now.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, let’s talk about that. For our listeners, we did have a podcast back in 2021 where we had Diane Cameron from Natural Resources Canada talk about Canada’s leadership and these small reactors, but maybe just remind everyone the sizes.
John Gorman:
I would distinguish small modular reactors or define them by saying that they are smaller than the conventional reactors that we think about, which can be sort of a gigawatt big each, right? The conventional reactors. So these small modular reactors are generally defined as being between five megawatts and 300 megawatts large. There are about 50, 5-0, technologies that are being seriously developed around the world. 12 of those technologies including some homegrown ones are going through the licensing and review process here in Canada. They’re very scalable. There’s different types of technologies that have different attributes. They’re sort of like us. You can think of them as a Swiss Army knife, but some of the notable qualities are, some of them produce very high temperature heat, which can be very useful in industrial processes. I’m sure we’ll talk about that. Many of them are very responsive and flexible, which means that they’re a very good partner for intermittent sources of electricity, like wind and solar.
John Gorman:
But I think one of the most promising aspects of small modular reactors is that they are either entirely manufactured or their major pieces are manufactured in manufacturing settings. They’re shipped to site and they’re assembled on site sort of like a prefab home. So the promise of small modular reactors has a lot to do with them being much lower cost, very open to manufacturing settings. So we can bring down the costs quickly, financeable by the private sector. These are the things that we think will help with the quick deployment of the technology.
Peter Tertzakian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Actually, if you Google small modular reactors and look at some of the ones that are being developed, they’re also being housed in really cool looking sci-fi buildings, visualizing the next generation of this technology. Just to give our audience a bit of a sense of scale. So five megawatts to 300, those first generation nuclear reactors were typically 1,000 and over, weren’t they? They’re really big. They had to be assembled on site. They took years and billions and billions of dollars basically to generate. And so the reason why I was asking about generation was because there’s sort of that first generation reactors, I mean, they had a lot of issues ultimately that we saw what happened with Three Mile Island and other places. So they get stigmatized and then the whole industry gets stigmatized with problems. And so the biggest issue I think is, that it’s on people’s mind when they think about nuclear reactors is safety. Can you talk about Generation 3, 4 reactor safety versus those original ones?
John Gorman:
Yeah. Well, firstly, Peter, let me just say tho those original ones don’t exist anymore, right? Those designs were replaced when there were incidents if you think of Chernobyl and Three Mile Island. The Canadian CANDU assets really have an impeccable safety record themselves, right? In fact, the head of our regulator, the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission is actually the chair of the Commission of Safety for the International Atomic Energy Agency. I mean, Canada has a leading reputation for the safe operation of reactors.
John Gorman:
The new advanced reactors are small modular reactors that we’ve been speaking of, they are a lot simpler. They’re smaller, but many fewer parts. They have these passive safety features built in which rely on physics rather than human intervention if there is any sort of reason that these things have to shut down or delay operation. And so it really takes this very safe track record that we’ve had here, but brings it to a new level with the small modular reactors because the law of physics, essentially along with the simplification, stop the reactors from having the sort of issues which get complicated when you get into safety requirements.
Jackie Forrest:
So, John, I think one of the fears of the original ones is that runaway where they react and the heat gets out of control. So are you saying these ones physically can’t do that?
John Gorman:
That’s what I’m saying. They physically can’t do that. They have a bunch of passive redundant safety features built-in which don’t require any sort of human intervention. Some of the cooling materials themselves cannot actually get to a point of overheating. So you’re getting away from that sort of stigma that there is or perception that there is around meltdowns for example that seem to be stuck in people’s psyche.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. I think let’s pursue that a little bit more because that stigma is important. Most people don’t know that Generation 1 hasn’t been continually refurbished and we’re on these subsequent much safer generations. So what needs to be done to overcome the safety objections? Because that’s the first thing that comes up, safety. And then we’ll talk about it in a minute, nuclear waste. So let’s talk safety first.
John Gorman:
Right.
Peter Tertzakian:
What do you need to do to overcome that?
John Gorman:
Well, I don’t think there’s an easy way to overcome it. It is part of pop culture now. And for some very complex and interesting reasons, the smallest of which is not the whole generation of people who lived through anti-nuclear war, peace protests and their children and the idea that somehow civil nuclear power was equivalent to nuclear armaments. And of course there was a bunch of pop culture related incidents that happened at the same time and it really galvanized that fear of nuclear power. But what I would say is that one thing we know for certain is that when people understand the facts behind nuclear power and safety record, the way that we deal with waste and other issues, they become supporters of nuclear power, the same way that I did. And increasingly, we’re finding people are going through that cycle of learning. That’s why we’re seeing a really astounding revisitation of nuclear and growing support for it internationally, both for conventional and a lot of interest in small modular reactors.
John Gorman:
The last thing I’d say about this, Peter, is just this hasn’t been the result of the effort of the industry. I mean, we try to communicate well, but it’s because of the climate crisis, right? Five years ago, even people didn’t care where their electrons came from. Today people are taking a close look at where their electricity comes from. They’re learning more about it. I think the small modular reactors along with the real facts behind nuclear being a safe and responsible form of electricity generation is causing a turnaround.
Jackie Forrest:
Let’s talk about the waste issue then because the other concern is that the waste from these nuclear reactors will be around for, I don’t know, millions of years and we can’t really process it. Is that still a concern with these smaller units?
John Gorman:
The waste issue with the smaller units is different in the sense that many of these small modular reactors can be transported to site. And then at the end of their fuel cycle life, they’re actually brought back to the manufacturing plant and their fuel is swapped out and safely stored and managed. But I think it’s important to talk about the bigger dynamics around nuclear waste. We have a really positive story to tell here that, frankly, other energy industries, electricity sectors should be following. Nuclear is responsible and prepays for the safe storage and management of every bit of waste that it produces. When we’re accountable for it, right from the uranium mining operations through to the decommissioning of these plants, there is a prepaid very systematic rigorous way of storing things.
John Gorman:
People are most often concerned about the spent fuel of course as you referred to Jackie. But the truth is no one has ever been harmed, let alone killed by spent fuel anywhere in the world. And there’s a reason for that. The reason is that it’s relatively straightforward to store and manage properly. So while these spent fuel casks are being stored on site right now, usually around the actual plant itself, Canada is working on a deep geological repository to permanently store that fuel. It’s a series of manmade and sort of geological rock that hasn’t moved for a couple billion years. And we’re following in the footsteps of Sweden and Finland and France in that regard. And of course, Canadians are leaders in the geological engineering. So we have a really great story to tell here. I think you have to look at what the other electricity sources are doing. We’re not emitting into the air. We’re not having people breathe it into our lungs. Some of the other technologies, all of them, don’t have real plans for dealing with their waste. So I think we’ve got a very positive story.
Peter Tertzakian:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). But let’s get back to these perceptions and the detractors of nuclear power, because the way I look at it from a raw business sense is that the sale of primary energy from whatever source is a multi-trillion dollar per year business. So every 1% of market share is big business. It’s huge, right? And the renewables, which you’re so familiar with given your background in solar, when Geothermal [inaudible 00:20:34] is competing to take market share away and substitute out fossil fuels, my sense is that they have no desire for others to come and participate in taking away that market share. Do you know what I mean? Basically, the renewables, they don’t want the nuclear guys in there because it’s all about market share too. And that’s part of the reason why I think a lot of the renewables association and the environmental groups that really push the renewables exclusively take every opportunity to bring up the safety and the waste issue.
John Gorman:
Historically, I think that has been true, Peter. But that’s changing and it’s changing in a very dramatic way. I didn’t realize… I don’t know about the two of you, but when I got into the electricity business 20 years ago, I knew that it was an area where we could make some positive change if we could decarbonize electricity systems. But I’m pretty sure I didn’t recognize back then that electrifying with clean electricity fuel switching would be the single most important thing that developed nations can do, right? From a climate perspective. And with that has become the realization that we are going to have to double or triple the amount of electricity generation that we have leading into 2050, especially when you consider producing hydrogen. That is going to be an enormous task. Something that no single electricity technology can do by itself. We see that the wind and solar sectors, the water power sectors, they’re beginning to recognize that.
John Gorman:
And to your point about the renewables association, I’m really pleased to say that in October of last year we launched something called the Electricity Alliance Canada, which is a teaming of wind, water, solar, nuclear, marine power, all of us pushing for the need to move very quickly and dramatically to double or triple the amount of electricity generation we have.
Jackie Forrest:
Okay. John, let’s talk about affordable, which is a big issue these days. Nuclear power plants have the reputation of being very expensive energy. They last a long time and they generate for decades, but there are a lot of initial upfront cost. How can you compare the cost of nuclear and maybe consider these newer generation of modular reactors to other sources of electricity like wind and solar and how affordable the energy is from those sources?
John Gorman:
Mm-hmm. Well, this is a complex area, isn’t it? I’ve heard you both speaking about various aspects of this on previous episodes. You have to consider the qualities that you’re getting with a particular energy source. So I heard your opening comments this morning mentioning the gas was at about $7.40. There’s a lot of volatility and risk there. We know that climate pricing will make that go up. We also know that in this context, while we need gas fired electricity generation for this transition, we’re going to be increasingly combining it with carbon capture and storage, right? So if you want to compare small modular reactors or conventional 24/7/365 clean electricity and heat from nuclear to gas, then you’re really thinking about gas and an environment where the price is just going to go up where you need to combine it with other things. So there’s a comparison of apples to apples that has to happen here.
John Gorman:
We also know that’s the case with renewables, right? Renewables are amazing. The cost point for just deploying panels and wind turbines now is good. But it’s not just good, it’s cheap. But as you increase penetration on the grid, then you get into other things like needing to combine it with storage, making grid modifications, et cetera. So when we talk about cost, we have to consider the qualities. Nuclear happens to deliver cost competitive, clean electricity, and heat on a very reliable basis. And it can make a great partner, especially the small modular reactors for intermittent renewables.
Peter Tertzakian:
Well, let’s move on to Canada. There are some small modular reactors that are on the books.
John Gorman:
Yes.
Peter Tertzakian:
New Brunswick. I think there’s one in Ontario. There’s another one or something. Where are those going on?
John Gorman:
It is an amazing Canadian story. It really is. Just as a little side note here. When I joined the nuclear sector, I did my homework. I was convinced about everything, except I wondered whether or not the small modular reactors were really on track, whether Canada was going to be a leader in that regard or whether it was just the industry drinking its own bath water because small modular reactors have been discussed for a couple of decades now. But the truth is, we have 12 technologies, some homegrown going through the review licensing process right now. They’re here much, much quicker than people seem to realize. Ontario Power Generation has selected its technology. It’s going to be connecting its first fully operational unit to the electricity grid in 2028. We’re going to see some other technologies smaller than those ones and higher temperature and being connected. Even before that, there’s a big book of orders in Ontario and in Saskatchewan now for these small modular reactors. We see enormous demand that needs to be satisfied in heavy industry and in the oil and gas sector. So very, very exciting things going on.
Jackie Forrest:
So John, the one that Ontario power generators is connecting is around, I think 200 megawatt size or in that range. But isn’t there a really small pilot underway at Chalk River as well for the mini ones?
John Gorman:
Yes, there is. There are a couple of mini ones, micro reactors as we call them. One that’s slated for Chalk River, another technology which has been funded recently by the federal government which is looking at Saskatchewan I believe and one of the laboratories that they have there for piloting that first one. So all of these being done with an eye to developing multiple units, of course, and building up the supply chain so that we can deploy quickly.
Peter Tertzakian:
Mm-hmm. And what about the oil sands? I mean, we’re hearing more after there was an article this morning. I just saw that, again, sort of increasing frequency that the oil and gas industry is looking at this.
John Gorman:
What a fascinating area. There’s an interesting phenomenon that’s happening right now, one that should give people hope, I think, and confidence. And that is all heavy industry across the board are making real serious plans about how they’re going to reach their decarbonization goals. It’s not just the oil and gas sector where we see it very, very prominently, but also steel, mining, cement, et cetera.
John Gorman:
I think the trend that we’re seeing here Jackie and Peter is they recognize there are some shorter term technologies that are going to get them part of the way there by 2030, and so with oil and gas, carbon capture and storage of course, and in the case of steel in Ontario and looking at existing clean electricity. But then they’re recognizing that post 2030, they’re going to need other technologies that bring them the rest of the weight in net zero. And so these discussions for small modular reactors are happening very actively with the oil and gas sector. I’d say they’re the leaders. We’ve been dealing with the pathways group and our own industry group. They’re working on the technology specifications and business models and the operating considerations. Now it is certainly the biggest market opportunity in Canada.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, and nuclear does have a huge advantage for industry because not only do you get the electricity, but you get the heat. And it’s very hard to electrify some of these very high heat processes today. There really isn’t any technology today in some cases for the very high heat.
Peter Tertzakian:
Mm-hmm.
John Gorman:
That’s so true, Jackie. I think a lot of nations look at low hanging fruit being how do we decarbonize our existing electricity grid. But in Canada, of course we have, what is it? 81, 82% non emitting already. And so for us to get these carbon emissions that we need to achieve, we’re going to have to use clean heat to decarbonize these heavy industry and natural resource sectors and small modular reactors, along with hydrogen provide some very promising options in that regard.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. You recently wrote a column on Canada’s Emission Reduction Plan that came out a few weeks ago. And back to maybe, Jackie, we can post that column that John wrote.
Jackie Forrest:
Yeah. We’ll put that in the show notes.
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah. Yeah. And so in that, and even in the discussion we’ve been having, you sort of referenced this number that other people’s referenced, that we’re going to have to build out our electricity capacity two to three times of our current generating capacity in this country. And we have to do it in 28 years to achieve net zero. I guess I’m convinced that you can ramp up the source generating capacity, say through nuclear, but it’s all the other infrastructure like transmission lines and substations and everything else that’s peripheral. I mean, is that really possible in 28 years? I mean, sort of do a reality check here.
John Gorman:
I’m very concerned about it, Peter. I share your view that we’ve really entered a realm now where we know what technologies are at our disposal, right? Some of them are off the shelf now, like conventional nuclear and solar and wind and things like that, water power where we still have resources. But we also know that hydrogen, carbon capture and storage, small modular reactors, hopefully long term storage, we can see which things have to be developed. I feel like we almost can handle that. But to your point, it’s these softer issues now that are just going to be very challenging. It’s hard to build anything in this country. It’s only become more difficult in terms of the sort of impact assessment, environmental approvals. The body in that you need from stakeholders, you layer on that the real urgent need to involve indigenous partners in this more fair and just society and economy going forward. When you look at the supply chain issues, when you look at the talent issues, we’re not prepared.
Jackie Forrest:
Now, one solution is to have more diverse energy sources. And we’ve talked on the podcast before that electrifying everything has its challenges for the build out that would be required and maybe using clean gas like hydrogen as an alternative to electrifying everything. Can you talk a little bit about, because you mentioned this in your column, that nuclear can play a role with hydrogen?
John Gorman:
It can play a role and it will play a very important role in the production of hydrogen as we strive to create this hydrogen economy. There’s work going on right now with our conventional reactors to use the vast amounts of clean electricity that are produced by those conventional reactors to create hydrogen. The small modular reactors add a new dimension to this in that we can use not only electrolysis, but we can use thermochemical processes through the high temperature heat that these small modular reactors, the fourth generation ones, produce. These small modular reactors can do multiple things at the same time. You could be in a mining situation, you could be providing electricity as well as heating for their operations and producing hydrogen for some of their heavy transport needs. And of course, they’re very deployable and scalable, right? So you’re going to be able to place these in areas that it makes sense for hydrogen to be produced and shipped.
Jackie Forrest:
So instead of building a big infrastructure across Canada, you could have maybe small mini nuclear generating hydrogen across the country and not need these pipelines potentially. Could that be a solution?
John Gorman:
Absolutely. Very scalable and also stackable. So you can sort of build one and then you can add multiple units to meet your needs as you go forward. We are working very closely within Our Can right now on those sort of nuclear hydrogen solutions.
Peter Tertzakian:
John, many people don’t realize that the nuclear industry also supplies specialty medical products and other things behind the scenes. Can you talk about that?
John Gorman:
Yeah, thanks Peter. I’d like to speak about that for a minute. Many people don’t realize that Canada was a world leader in the creation of isotopes. It was in 1951 in London, Ontario that we created the first medical isotope using nuclear technology. And of course, since then Canada has gone on to be the world’s leading supplier. About 90% of cobalt, 60 comes from Canadian sources. And that of course is a diagnostic tool. But these isotopes are used for sterilization, nuclear imaging, radiation therapy. While our laboratories have traditionally been the leaders in the production of those isotopes, we are now doing some incredible innovations that are allowing us to harvest these isotopes directly from our existing operating nuclear reactors. So Canada is really poised to continue with some life saving nuclear medicine
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah, the cancer treatments and other things like that really heavily depend upon the products that come out of these nuclear reactors. Well, John, we talked through sort of the generations of CANDU reactors and nuclear reactors. And certainly, I think you’ve convinced me that we are actually still leaders in nuclear power in Canada. In fact, in your column that we’ll post, you made the statement that it is critical that Canada lead rather than risk being left behind. And so I don’t get the sense that beyond a small clique of people that we are viewed as leaders in this area. So how do we get that word back out much as back in the ’70s in the sense that you couldn’t say the word nuclear without Canada being mentioned, right?
John Gorman:
It’s true. In the ’70s, CANDU Canadians would be mentioned with nuclear. And then we went through a period of course where even right up until three years ago, we couldn’t find a liberal politician at the federal level who would say the word nuclear behind a microphone. And that was very alarming for those of us in the electricity and energy space, right?
Peter Tertzakian:
Mm-hmm.
John Gorman:
Realizing how much electricity we’re going to need. But they’ve really made a lot of progress I think not only with the climate plan and some of the brave decisions that they’ve made in terms of addressing the climate crisis, but they’re now of course actively talking about the important role that nuclear has to play going towards a net zero future. And a budget was a really important development for us, stating clearly that it’s a clean energy source that’s going to be supported, that Canada has the opportunity to be a world leader here in small modular reactors and we’re delivering on that.
John Gorman:
I’ll go a step further and say the reason the budget was important is because it not only committed to continued investment in the development of the technology, but it’s invested in the entire ecosystem. Investments in [inaudible 00:34:46] been critical mineral sector, investments in our regulator, opening up the Canada infrastructure bank and other funding. We’re making a lot of progress there. We’re firmly now part of the policy and funding programming along with all the other clean energy sources that we need as we go forward here.
Jackie Forrest:
Well, I take a lot of hope in the fact that all of that good news, but also the fact that we’re actually building pilots here and maybe in the position to start rolling this out in a bigger way in the 2030s. So thank you, John, for coming-
Peter Tertzakian:
Yeah, thanks.
Jackie Forrest:
… and giving us an update on this really exciting area for Canada.
John Gorman:
Thank you so much. It’s been a real pleasure speaking to both of you.
Jackie Forrest:
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